Curse

UnChosen · Jan 29, 2009, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

QFT. Why the double standard, y'all?

/notsigned

Nah...its probably just because its not that popular at the moment. The moment CoP/RoJ get whacked (hopefully not) a new bandwagon will come in for all the elitists to jump on. And then they'll keep going down the list of PvE only skills and the better normal skills trying to make everyone play "balanced"...

cataphract · Jan 29, 2009, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rak Orgon of Beowulf

/signed for both,
no scatter for [ray of judgment] is ridiculous, the AB and JQ npcs just sit there like "duh AoE damage and burning i think i'll stay in it"

If they stand in SH and Maelstrom, why shouldn't they stand in RoJ? Not only does it deal damage, it's way prettier.

/notsigned for both

MisterB · Jan 29, 2009, 08:48 AM // 08:48

I honestly think the lack of scatter for [[Ray of Judgment] was an oversight. Compare it to [[Balthazar's Aura], [[Symbol of Wrath]/[[Kirin's Wrath]. I fully expect to see "Fixed bug with AI and RoJ" or some such in a future update. Anyone who says RoJ should not cause scatter must also want all scatter removed again, just like the game was back in '05.

Basically, anyone defending it's current form is asking for a double standard, or wants scatter to be reverted altogether.

lol [[Cry of Pain]

the_jos · Jan 29, 2009, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

Well, it's quite sad to see all "elite" areas being crowded by gimmick 123 builds again

Ok, before I start my comments on RoJ and CoP first something about this one.

Look at the state of the elite areas before those gimmic builds.
FoW, UW, Deep, Urgoz's and DoA were only accessible by guild teams or specific team builds. There was no crowd there because people could not play there without either a guild or a profession with the wanted profession and build.
And remember, the PuG builds didn't involve too many thinking from most members. Kinda like 123. Why? Because that would mean failure, PuG builds are made to be fail-safe.
Only a few roles were critical. In Deep you need an experienced tank to aggro and KD, the rest is doable. I played Urgoz's as only experienced player, think we could have finished by reading wiki. FoW is easy as long as one player knows the quests and the rest listens, same for UW as long as the team can split. DoA needs only one or two experienced players in the old Kaiz' build. The rest is hardly more than pressing 123, even more retarted if you look at the BiP involved in some of the teams.
So elite areas with PuGs would mean playing some kind of 123 game.

Next to the skills.
Adding shatter to RoJ is kind of obvious, but hey, it's an elite.
And the shatter is easily solved by adding some ele spells in the team.
In competitive arenas RoJ could be somewhat of a problem, but you know it's going to be played, so just counter it. It's not that hard.
So adding shatter doesn't change anything in my opinion.

Next CoP.
It's been argued over and over again.
My solution is easy. Keep it the way it is but make the skill remove one mesmer hex from each target that took damage from by CoP.
If you want to take 5 cryers in the team, you need to bring 5 different AoE mesmer hexes and stack those before unleasing CoP. Would make it somewhat less 123 while still very playable with some coordination.
Linking it to Fast Casting sounds like a nice solution but would not really change much. People would just bring a mesmer to farm instead of some other character.

Or, let's say both skills are completely nerfed.
No more 123 crowds in elite areas. Yay for not being able to play those areas as PuG again. I don't care, I play then with guild anyway. But others might not be so lucky and just shouting that they should find another guild is not fair. For example, for over a year I was in a guild with real life friends and it was not easy to team up with them for elite areas (two of them live in the US, several others and I live in Europe). Find another guild and abandon real life friends just because I can't play elite areas without a guild?
Sound kinda harsh to be honest....

Improvavel · Jan 29, 2009, 10:22 AM // 10:22

It seems people don't understand why [[Ursan blessing] was different from the [[CoP].

All you need for Ursan was ursans (with good levels of grinding) and some [[healer's boon]+[[heal party].

No build required, no professions required other than monk, no counters to ursan strike, aoe knockdown touch skill!!!!!, grinding required.

Those full HM DoA runs still take con sets, other consumables, tanks and what not. Nerf them if you want, but who cares what happens in places that have permanent 50% chance to miss attacks anyway?!?!?!? What the hell is that?!?!

bungusmaximus · Jan 29, 2009, 10:33 AM // 10:33

RoJ just needs scatter nothing more, I like that smiters don't absolutely suck now. But I vanquished several areas i elona with a monk + heroes that weren't even properly runed yet :P. Now that's a little bit too much.

Just don't destroy the skill.

Mangione · Jan 29, 2009, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by guardian of dragon temple

Cry of Pain:

n.1 remove aoe effect, so skill only damages one foe at time.

n.2 keep aoe effect, but keep it within limits. <-- for every two sunspear ranks, this skill deals damage to 1 additional foe in area.

n.3 leave the skill as it is, but scale damage:
damage done is 25...50hp + 10hp for each 2 points in the Fast Casting attribute.

(much like TNTF)

Quote:

Originally Posted by guardian of dragon temple

P.S.: if simmilar thread is already open somewhere, feel free to lock this one, but i couldnt find one if it exists.

Similar threads about CoP exist already in Sardelac.
One is about PvE skills (It is in the first page of Sardelac atm):
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10351072

while CoP is already discussed here in the thread "About Cry Of Pain"
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10343934

Bug John · Jan 29, 2009, 11:43 AM // 11:43

people never understand that

- asking for a nerf to what they don't want to play will not make pugs turn into what they want them to be

- it's totally arrogant to think they are smarter than the average pve crowd and the nerfs they're asking for will enlighten the stupid masses

- if you were less lazy, you'd find a decent pve guild and play the way you like without ever having to worry about what pugs use, as it has absolutely no influence on your game experience

I agree that RoJ should make mobs scatter like any other dotaoe, but I don't care whether they add it

/not signed for both

Lishy · Jan 29, 2009, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by dark4190

I think you should all stop your "crying"

Agreed.
Stop finding every possible reason to ruin the fun for others.
If a skill is above-par, why nerf it?

"123 ursan builds durfhurf"
Anet actually didn't mind ursan at first. The reason it took so long to nerf is because they were UNSURE. But because 100% groups were running it, and because you were forced to grind to get it to usefulness, that's why it was nerfed.

RoJ and CoP on the other hand, aren't really used much outside of specialized team builds. Most of the time I see people running balanced with imbagon and I only ever find successful cry and ray way teams within my alliance.
Actually play elite areas and look at what groups are being formed before QQing

Onyx Blindbow · Jan 29, 2009, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Stop finding every possible reason to ruin the fun for others.
If a skill is above-par, why nerf it?

Do you even understand the reason(s) for nerf(s) or nerf requests?

Quote:

"123 ursan builds durfhurf"
Anet actually didn't mind ursan at first. The reason it took so long to nerf is because they were UNSURE. But because 100% groups were running it, and because you were forced to grind to get it to usefulness, that's why it was nerfed.

are you actually serious? You really believe that A-net nerfed Ursan because of the grind that was required???

A-net nerfed Ursan because it was incredibly OP when run as a group, thus enabling you to defeat any area in the game with minimal effort and given that 99% of PUGs were doing nothing but run Ursan.

Quote:

RoJ and CoP on the other hand, aren't really used much outside of specialized team builds. Most of the time I see people running balanced with imbagon and I only ever find successful cry and ray way teams within my alliance.

The "specialized team build" is called Cryway and it is used in every single area it can be used and by PUG as well as alliance or guild groups. (you actually alluded to this yourself in the later sentence)

Running balanced with a PUG??? LMAO I dont think I have seen a PUG running balance since before EOTN even then it was fairly rare as each area had a specific team.

Quote:

Actually play elite areas and look at what groups are being formed before QQing

CRYWAY or CRYWAY+RoJ

CoP is abused by 99% of PUGs in all high end areas apart from UW (where they use the UWSC builds one of which is a cryer

)

I think you need to actually go into these areas to see what people "play" then you will understand why ppl are asking for these nerfs.

My take on possible Nerfs

RoJ /signed (but...)
IMO RoJ scatter was simply overlooked when the skill was changed (though the Ion cannon effect is nice

) so I am expecting that scatter will be added
as a bug fix

CoP /signed

CoP requires either AoE removal/nerf or a nerf to the damage dealt and the AoE to remain in place (it should be not much higher damage than Cry of Frustration without the attribute tie imo)

The skill clearly cannot continue to deal the damage it does as it is at least as overpowered as Ursan was.

bungusmaximus · Jan 29, 2009, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Noone wants to ruin the fun for others, it's just a little awkward that you only NEED one skill to win all areas while there's myriads of skills/builds in the game. If someone would turn my chass into tictactoe there would be screams yes, because I like chess and I hate tictactoe.

Improvavel · Jan 29, 2009, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Noone wants to ruin the fun for others, it's just a little awkward that you only NEED one skill to win all areas while there's myriads of skills/builds in the game. If someone would turn my chass into tictactoe there would be screams yes, because I like chess and I hate tictactoe.

Although I never run a full cry team, it appears that u need to have some SF tanks, some hexers, some cops, some monks, some way to kill leftovers.

Still not that hard, but a far cry from no roles need other than heal ursan way.
Ursan way was killed because of the grind needed and the fact it killed profession variety, wasn't because people could do stuff.

On the other hand, must be fun to try to do DoA HM with a balanced team and no consumables with a 50% chance to miss all attacks.

kostolomac · Jan 29, 2009, 02:39 PM // 14:39

A bit offtopic , but I tried getting a pug for DoA and guess what? Not everyone is asking for cryers , and not everyone is running them. Stop putting things out of proportion.

Also CoP is nowhere near as OP as UB , you didn't need anything else for UB the other skills were just there to fill the spots , and didn't have to watch aggro at all.

And I really like the double standard , CoP is OP but SY! is not. I was in a pug with an imbagon and a sin aggroed 4 groups of torment creatures and we kill them with only the sin dead because he was out of earshot range. And more info , we had no prot monks, only a HB monk and a N/Rt hero. Not overpowered at all!

Horus · Jan 29, 2009, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

And I really like the double standard , CoP is OP but SY! is not.

hey, just because this thread is about CoP/RoJ it doesn't mean SY! isn't overpowered... If you want to suggest a nerf for it, feel free to make new thread about it.

bungusmaximus · Jan 29, 2009, 03:27 PM // 15:27

I'm doubting a little anyways. Sure, PvE skills are overpowered, but when I look at the way HM was implemented it kinda makes sense. HM is ALSO overpowered :P. I wouldn't mind that pve skills get toned down a little bit (Kostolomac has a point about SY :P), but when you sometimes see the sick SPLUT damage certain monsters do.....lol

the_jos · Jan 29, 2009, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Noone wants to ruin the fun for others, it's just a little awkward that you only NEED one skill to win all areas while there's myriads of skills/builds in the game. If someone would turn my chass into tictactoe there would be screams yes, because I like chess and I hate tictactoe.

It's only that some players like to play tic-tac-toe on a chess board with pawns only. It's a limited game, but kids enjoy it. But the board is larger and you can add kings, queens, towers and the like. It makes the game more difficult, something many kids don't like. And to be honest, when I play chess I don't like to do that with or against those who can only play tic-tac-toe. It's no fun. So leave them with their tic-tac-toe so that they don't annoy me when I play chess.

I do like the skills changed but not for a silly 'there are numerous skills available' reason. That's limited to closed groups, PuGs don't know numerous skills, they only know fixed builds that 'work' (well, get the job done somehow). Say goodbye to 95% of the available skills and 30-50% of the available professions.

N1ghtstalker · Jan 29, 2009, 06:29 PM // 18:29

notsigned

PvE monsters are already raping my ass with [giant stomp] and other monster skills.
First people QQ about some proffessions not being viable in certain areas and we got ursan.
Then more QQ'ing started and ursan got nerfed. Then copway was invented and once again certain less used proff's were viable again and now you're QQ'ing again about being imba.

Monks finally got something to make them used in PvE next to being a healing machine (don't u get bored of healing after all that time?) and now they have roj so they can be used in an offensive way now. Srsly gtfo

there are more imba skills that need to be nerfed like [peace and harmony]

edit: just made some calculations
at 16 smite [ray of judgment] is good for around 338 damage
at 16 fire magic [savannah heat] packs 315 fire damage
compare recharge and energy cost and you'll pretty much know where this is going to
RoJ = SH for monks with a shiney animation

Icy The Mage · Jan 29, 2009, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Also note that SH allows you to take Teinai's Heat, Searing Heat, etc... while RoJ allows you no extra AoE damage on your bar.

N1ghtstalker · Jan 29, 2009, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcyFiftyFive

Also note that SH allows you to take Teinai's Heat, Searing Heat, etc... while RoJ allows you no extra AoE damage on your bar.

exactly
so RoJ is actually fine as it is because it doesn't come close to the hard nuking of a SH ele

Onyx Blindbow · Jan 29, 2009, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcyFiftyFive

Also note that SH allows you to take Teinai's Heat, Searing Heat, etc... while RoJ allows you no extra AoE damage on your bar.

Apart from the CoP ofc which is guaranteed to be there, why use one OP skill when you can use 2 or 3 if you mimic or arcane echo it